Transcript: Episode 10 - Haunted Central

SPEAKER

Good morning and welcome to the Richard J. Riordan Central Library. The library is now open.

Sheridan: Welcome to Past Due. 100 Years of Central Library, a podcast commemorating the Central Library Centennial. As part of our celebration, we're putting together a smorgasbord of events, a special reading challenge, and creating tons of original content for Angelenos to learn more about their beloved Central Library. For more, visit lapl.org/central. 100. I'm your host, Sheridan Cazarez. As a librarian in the Exploration and Creativity Department of the Los Angeles Public Library. On this episode of Past Due. In observance of the month of October, we're getting a little bit ooky and a little bit spooky. First, we sit down with Peter Hauge, the map librarian in our history and genealogy department, to discuss the enduring urban legend of the tunnels underneath Los Angeles and the lizard people who reportedly inhabit them. Then we take a spooky little sojourn through our occult collections, with librarian Amanda Mellor as our guide from the Social sciences, Philosophy and Religion Department. Then we have an exciting peek into the paranormal investigation that we have planned here for central, and hear from some of the staff who've had ghostly encounters. Grab your Ouija boards and maybe a little witch's brew and settle in as we dive into the haunted halls of Central Library. Myths about the city of Los Angeles abound. We constantly hear that we're an incredibly expensive city to live in, which, okay, is pretty true. Uh, and that the City of Angels doesn't have culture, which obviously we beg to differ. I'll probably lesser known myth is that of the underground tunnels beneath the city and the reptilian Angelenos who purportedly live beneath us. To help illuminate the subject, we've invited Peter Hauge, our map librarian. Hi, Peter. Welcome to Past Due.

Peter Hauge: Oh, very nice to be here. Thank you.

Sheridan: Tell us a little bit about yourself and your role here at LAPL.

Peter Hauge: Well, I am the map librarian. I started with LAPL in 2013 down in the History Department at Central, as a part-time librarian. Um, I came in full-time to the Social Sciences Department in, I believe, 2021. It was in 2023 that I became the map librarian in August of 2023. So it's been, I think this is my three year anniversary as a map librarian. Um, I have my bachelor's in geography from CSUN, Cal State Northridge. And I did my MLIS up at San Jose State.

Sheridan: Nice, nice. All right. And so, okay, so you've got, uh, you're the map librarian, you've got a bachelor's in geography, which is good. Um, because this is kind of exactly why we asked you to be on Past Due. Uh, as someone with extensive expertise in maps, uh, we thought you'd be the perfect person to confirm or debunk, or debunk, a rumor that has been circulating about our beloved city. Um, are there secret tunnels beneath Los Angeles?

Peter Hauge: Wow. Uh, it's such an interesting question, and it's a question that I get often. Folks come in regularly at the history department. Uh, treasure seekers, uh, explorers, YouTubers, um, people looking for, you know, odd, uh, urban spaces to explore. So are there secret tunnels under Los Angeles? Uh, yes and no is really the best answer I can give to that. Um, I've heard just as many rumors as other people have about secret tunnels that were used during prohibition. Uh, secret tunnels used by celebrities, um, various takes on, on different, uh, different tunnel networks that might be underneath the city. Those types of tunnels, especially tunnels use that may have been used during prohibition. Uh, if there are such tunnels, there weren't any maps made of them. And if there were maps made of them. They weren't then delivered to LA Public Library for future reference of the nefarious activities. So yes, um, it is, it is known that, uh, you know, tunnels would be used, you know, to go from, you know, one storefront to another. How, was it a vast network? Pretty unlikely. I mean, we are a very large city. We have a complex sewer system. We have a, we have a subway system, you know, and we have skyscrapers and Bunker Hill. So just simply by way of living in the complexity that we do, there is of course going to be, you know, a vast infrastructure underground. This is not open to the public. Um, just like any city, any, any city infrastructure, you know, is generally not, uh, not accessible. The, the city's GIS data is, is available and you can view the substructure maps for the city of Los Angeles. They're very complicated building, uh, you know, engineering maps. So I cannot interpret them, you know, in, in great detail, but yeah, there's definitely a complex substructure underneath the city. There's even some weird stuff underneath central library that, you know, has got me kind of thinking like, what is that? That, that does say shaft and that, that does, that does appear to be a small little, little space. Yeah. There's something down there.

Sheridan: No. Yeah. There's a lot to share. Um, in, in the Hidden Spaces episode, uh, that we did previously this year. Um, one of our engineers, Jessie, our lead engineer, mentioned that there's actually a whole sublevel beneath LL4 where they have the foundations of the building and they go down there to check stuff out sometimes to make sure that there's no cracks or leaks or.

Peter Hauge: There is an LL5.

Sheridan: There is an LL5.

Peter Hauge: I was wondering about this myself. Yeah. So same idea, right? I mean, any of these buildings are going to have some substructures to them. Um, is that a secret? I don't know if it's not necessarily a top. I mean, we've been talking about it on a podcast. It's not necessarily top secret, but it's simply not open to the public, I guess, you know, we should say.

Sheridan: Um, so there's, there is a second layer to, to the myth that we're talking about here today. Um, so the tunnels. Okay. That's one thing. Yeah. Um, we also have heard that there, that these tunnels, if they exist or don't, are home to lizard people. Um, in our research, we learn that the lizard people, but the lizard and the lizard people of Los Angeles are not necessarily one and the same. Do you know of a difference that you can explain?

Peter Hauge: Okay. So this is this could be sort of a complicated or even sort of a touchy subject when, when we're talking about the lizard people. So there are the lizard people of Los Angeles, which I'll discuss in just a moment. Um, but there also seems to be a, um, very popular amongst the conspiracy theories and, you know, these sort of odd circles talking about a, a race of, uh, of lizard people, shape changing reptilian humanoids that are in high powers of government. Right. I feel like you only hear them called reptilians. Reptilians. Right. Exactly. And what we're, what we're talking about today has absolutely nothing to do with the with those ideas. I think some of those ideas may have gotten a little, um, a little crossed, uh, around the 1950s. These stories of lizard people come from, from the 1930s. Uh, it was around 1934. Uh, there was a gentleman named, named Shufelt who claimed to have a machine that, uh, was housed in a box that nobody could really see inside of. There's some, uh, some details about what this machine can do, but essentially it was a divining rod or like a dowsing rod for water.

Sheridan: Okay.

Peter Hauge: But Shufelt claimed that this device could detect pretty much anything underground. As late back as 1897, there were stories about, uh, about gold that was hidden under Fort Moore Hill. Um, and so by 1933, Shufelt had come along with his device and was claiming that there was gold buried underneath, underneath that same spot. And there's stories in the 19 in, in 33, uh, saying that he started digging and was, of course unsuccessful in finding massive hoards of gold. Now the story gets a little weird because then in January of 1934, there's more stories in which he has convinced county officials to let him dig again right around Broadway and Fort Moore Place. So right around where the 101 freeway is. And this is where the story of the Lizard People starts to come up. Shufelt claims to have spoken to Hopi Chief, uh, Chief Greenleaf. And Greenleaf told him of a story about a race of ancient, ancient people that lived in this area. So we're talking like ancient Atlanteans, you know, um, kind of going really far back here, right? Like that, that type of stuff. This very super technologically advanced group of people that lived in the area, uh, 5000 years ago or so. Uh, they had, uh, predictions of tongues of fire falling from the sky. They describe a meteor shower that was going to destroy their entire civilization. And in preparation for this, as the story goes, they started digging these shafts underneath Los Angeles. And so it was told to Shufelt that, um, these, uh, these tunnels, um, represented or looked like a skeletal, uh, lizard; with the head being somewhere around Dodger Stadium, the tail being somewhere around central library. If you look at this lizard. Again there's been, no one's ever seen this, this map. Uh, there's a small map that did run in some of the papers that do show Shufelt's designs of where he believed some of the tunnels were, along with some of these, uh, treasure chambers or gold chambers that he had. Uh, but that map doesn't represent or doesn't look like a lizard at all. So, I believe this idea of calling them the Lizard People stems from this idea that they had, you know, an underground network that resembled lizards or that resembled a lizard. So when I think about the Nazca lines, um, you know, the petroglyphs of, you know, hummingbirds and things like that. So, apparently in the 1950s, there's more stories. Sorry, this is from the Los Angeles Mirror in 1953. "It was a group calling themselves the Kiva Lodge began to meet quietly in the house of the Architect in Hollywood. They announced that they had made contact with remnants of the lizard people now residing silently beneath Mount Shasta. A membership in Kiva is by invitation only, and mum's the word. This writer had to swear by the back of a metal lizard that he would not divulge the Lodge's meeting place, or the names of its members, or any information about the activities." So you can imagine with stories...

Sheridan: Yeah.

Peter Hauge: Going around like that, swearing reporters on statues of metal lizards. Things just got a little bit strange, right? And so yeah, that's that's, that's where it comes from. So we often get people coming in asking, asking questions about the maps and underground maps. And it usually takes a minute to sort of realize like, oh.           

Sheridan: They're asking about the lizard people.

Peter Hauge: Asking about lizard people, yeah.             

Sheridan: And so, uh, just for, for listeners to know what's going on here, um, we've, Peter brought with him some some folders that have several printed documents in them. Do you just keep these on hand in case people come in and ask?

Peter Hauge: Yeah, we have, we have we have a vertical file on the Lizard People, specifically with a lot of the newspaper clippings discussing them and also discussing Shufelt again, the Lizard People is only one of several, uh, efforts that he had to sink holes into, into Los Angeles. Shortly after he found nothing, uh, of, of Lizard People or found anything remaining gold. There was later stories about a boy who had drowned, and he claimed that his device was able to find the boy's body. Then later, uh, I think the following year, he claimed that there was another tunnel, um, that, uh, that he had found evidence of that was, uh, again dug by, um, Spanish missionaries in the San Gabriel mission. And these were again tunnels that were filled with gold. Lots of stories of him digging and lots of stories of him claiming, you know, that there's tunnels and gold, but very few stories of him actually finding anything. So yeah. Strange guy. Very. It's, uh, it's a really fun story of Los Angeles. It's a neat urban legend, but as far as I can tell. There's not much to it.

Sheridan: Not much to it. For any interested listeners, we'll link some of the online resources that we can find in the show notes, and we'll see if we can even scan some of the vertical file that Peter brought with him to share. So you can see for yourself these reptile shaped tunnels, uh, if they can even be made out. All right. Peter, I think, uh, I'll ask you now a question that I ask every single guest on the Past Due podcast. What do you think the spookiest part of central is?

Peter Hauge: The spookiest part of Central library? That's a good question. I get the heebie jeebies. Um, I get the willies when I'm walking up the, the steps up into the, uh, the second floor, those, uh, those marble steps. And I walk past the sphinxes.

Sheridan: Oh, yeah. Yeah. The north stairwell.

Peter Hauge: Yeah, yeah, thank you. The north stairwell. Um, there's, there's definitely something about that sort of area that I just get, I just get vibes from. I think it's the sphinxes. It's the it's the statue looking, looking down on; I'm forgetting her name.

Sheridan: Civilization.

Peter Hauge: Thank you. Civilization. Civilization looking down on you. Um. I definitely get a creepy feeling when I'm, when I'm passing there. Or maybe it's just because it's a, it's a cool setting for, maybe like a true crime murder mystery, you know, it's. Sure. Um, but, uh, yeah, I, I don't, I don't know what it is about it.

Sheridan: The lighting is weird there. There's like something about the lighting that makes it feel almost like, um, viscous, I would say.

Peter Hauge: Yeah.

Sheridan: Sometimes like at certain times of day you feel like, like there isn't any like, almost like time stood still for a second. Mhm. Uh, about the map collection, is there a, is there any specific way that patrons can get in touch, uh, or make appointments to view maps? Um, research questions? How would anybody do that?

Peter Hauge: Yeah. You can, you can email the history department directly at history@lapl.org. Um, I also love to get emails from, from folks with the, with questions about maps. My email address is peter.hauge@lapl.org.

Sheridan: Well, thank you so much for being on the podcast, Peter. We discussed a huge breadth of stuff from tunnels to lizards to buried treasure. Uh, yeah. Yeah. What a what a good interview. Uh, thanks so much for being on the podcast.

Peter Hauge: Thank you very much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Sheridan: Of course. All right. As you know, today's episode is all about the different spooky things that might be happening here at the Central Library. Uh, one of our guests today is Robyn Myers. She's a Facilities manager who has worked at central, uh, and for the library since the 80s. So she's been around the block a couple of times, and being Facilities manager has also had the opportunity to explore all the different nooks and crannies of the building. Thanks for being with us, Robyn.

Robyn Meyers: It's my pleasure. My personal encounter up on the fourth floor. There's a spirit up there who's having a lot of fun. And, uh, she likes to scare people, but not, not in a frightening way. I worked here for 20 years or something like that by the time I retired and I'm in the, in the little staff kitchen and I'm washing my mug and somebody comes up on my right ear and says, boo! And I jumped, and I looked around and there wasn't anybody. And frankly, they would have had to run like Jesse Owens to get away from me.

Sheridan: And you would have heard the pitter patter.

Robyn Meyers: I would have heard them going, yeah. Nope. It was her. And I said, "well, it's about time you talked to me."

Sheridan: I've only been here for.

Robyn Meyers: She's she's enjoying herself here. I mean, um, a lot of spirits who know they're gone have come here because it is their peaceful, happy place. And this building does have probably more than one. I haven't really wandered around to look for them or, you know, invited them to talk to me because I've been busy. Um, but yeah, this building does have spirits in it. Any old building will in my pers(onal). This is my personal opinion.

Sheridan: The ghost that scared you when you when you were washing your mug. You mentioned that that; you said "she". Is it because of the voice that that they used?

Robyn Meyers: No, I just got the sense it was a woman. Oh, I just got the sense it was a woman.

Sheridan: You just kind of knew.

Robyn Meyers: Yeah. I just kind of knew. And she was laughing about it.

Sheridan: Uh. Huh. Well, I hope so. She got a.

Robyn Meyers: She got a kick out of scaring people, but she doesn't really scare people.

Sheridan: It's more just like a trickster type of.

Robyn Meyers: Yeah. Sort of. Sort of like your friend who comes up behind you and goes, boop!

Sheridan: Yeah. Uh, if the prankster on the fourth floor is listening, um, come by sometime. We'd love to interview you here on the podcast.

Robyn Meyers: I think she'd enjoy it.

Sheridan: Thanks so much, Robyn.

Robyn Meyers: You're welcome.

Sheridan: And we're back with another segment here on the October episode of the Past Due: 100 Years of Central Library podcast. This time we're catching up with Brenda Breaux, principal public relations specialist, who's been at the library almost 27 years and in her time here has had a little bit of a spooky experience. Brenda, tell us about any ghostly experiences or encounters that you might have had here at Central Library.

Brenda Breaux: Well, when I first started here, I was a dedicated employee, working late at night and late into the night. My. I had my daughter up here with me. She was very young at the time, and we were going down the dark fourth floor hallways and we're hearing footsteps coming towards us, just obviously a woman walking towards us. And we're like thinking, who else is here at this time of night? We turned the corner. There was no one there. And, uh, that was kind of spooky.

Sheridan: Oh, I bet what time? What time or what time of night was it?

Brenda Breaux: 8:00 at night. It's, you know, nobody else was on the fourth floor because it was staff, is staff only.

Sheridan: And you heard the footsteps loud and clear. 

Brenda Breaux: Loud and clear. My daughter heard them too. And we're just thinking we're going to run into somebody when we turn the corner. And there was no one there.

Sheridan: What did you do next?

Brenda Breaux: I got my stuff, and we got out of here.

Sheridan: Probably the safest bet.

Brenda Breaux: You know. And, uh, after talking with security about it, uh, they were telling me stories of hearing different sounds, different places, and it just really. I was always curious about it.

Sheridan: Okay. And so this curiosity, uh, sort of made it so that you wanted to be involved and be a part of the paranormal investigation of Central Library that's now taking place. Uh, tell us a little bit more about that.

Brenda Breaux: Well, I'm always, uh, I've worked with filming at the Central Library in our branches since I started here. And one of the requests that we always got that we didn't, uh, approve was, uh, paranormal investigation. You know, hearing stories. I'm always curious. And so I heard that this was going to be an opportunity to really look into this. And I wanted to know because I know what I heard, I know the stories I've heard, and I wanted to see what's out there.

Sheridan: Okay. Brenda. So as part of the paranormal investigation. Who are the experts that you all have invited to carry out, sort of like the the ghost hunting here at Central Library.

Brenda Breaux: We got Patty Negri, a medium, and Linda the ghost hunter. I saw both of them. They did a piece on the Cecil, a hotel I would never go into because I think it's haunted. So I thought if anything, they would be the right people to go into this older building and find out what's happening.

Sheridan: Uh, and do you think they're going to find anything?

Brenda Breaux: I don't know, because I really have never worked with, uh, this type of investigation before. And I, there's part of me that wants them to prove that the stories are true. And there's part of me that's like scared and doesn't want to know the truth.

Sheridan: I'm kind of feeling the same way. I feel like if they prove that Central is haunted, I don't want to come and work here every day.

Brenda Breaux: I agree 100%. I don't want to know. I don't want to know where the ghosts hang out. But I want, it would be nice to confirm some of the stories that people are scared to tell because their ghost stories.

Sheridan: Sure. Sure, sure. Well, thank you so much for chatting with us, Brenda, today. Um, hopefully, I don't know. We'll see how this goes and what we find.

Brenda Breaux: Central Library's history is preserved in its architecture, collections, photographs, and artifacts. But another part of its history lives in memory and the stories people tell about what they've experienced here. Whether these encounters have a supernatural explanation, an ordinary explanation, or no explanation at all, they have become part of the folklore of the Central Library. After nearly 100 years, this building has accumulated more than books. It has accumulated stories.

Sheridan: Hello everyone, this is Sheridan J. Cazarez, librarian in the Exploration and Creativity Department of the Los Angeles Public Library. And your Past Due podcast host here on the ground today at the Paranormal Investigation of Central Library. We're here with Linda, the Ghost Hunter and Patti Negri, who is a medium. And I'm just going to ask them a couple of questions to give you all a sneak peek into what will later be published. To help us answer the question, is Central Library haunted? So we're going to start with you, Patty, if you would just let us know a little bit about yourself and, uh. Yeah, take it away.

Patti Negri: I am an LA native, so I'm thrilled to be here. I've actually been talking to spirits since I could talk. I wasn't even in kindergarten. Um, I just did a thing of raising the veil and talking to them when I was 7 or 8 years old and been doing it ever since.

Sheridan: Wow. That's amazing. That's a long career and yeah. And then how about you, Linda? Would you let us know a little bit about yourself?

Linda, the Ghost Hunter: Sure. I’m Linda the Ghost Hunter. I was actually born in San Francisco but raised in Los Angeles. I love this city. I love the vibe of this library. And I've been dying to get in here for at least 20 years, so this is kind of a dream come true for me. I mean, I have chills. Just this has been happening since I walked in. So do I think it's haunted? Yeah. I'm going to have to say my arm hair definitely does, for sure.

Sheridan: Amazing. Amazing. And so we'll go ahead with our next question, which is, um, what did you know about the building before joining us for today's investigation, if anything at all?

Patti Negri: I didn't know anything about the building except that it was old and it was beautiful. And when I've been here before, which was quite a while, I felt the magic of it. I felt the energy. So, um. Yes, it's definitely haunted within, what, a minute and a half of walking in, we felt the spirits and everything. So I don't know any of the history though. One of my things and whether I, my TV shows that I do or my all my YouTubers, I don't know anything going in. I don't want to because I want to stay that right brained, creative. I don't want to go logical. Oh, this happened here and this happened here. That takes me away. So I know nothing of the history or the rumors or anything like that.

Sheridan: Uh, okay. Thank you. And how about you, Linda?

Linda, the Ghost Hunter: Yeah, I'm the same way. I want to come in cold. I do know this is the 100th anniversary. Uh, I have a dear friend who happens to be my neighbor who lives next door, and he works at the library, so I know him. Um, and I know this is a great historic building. That is all I know.

Sheridan: Um, and then, uh, your impressions as you were walking up to the building and coming up here, uh, did you, did you feel something change as soon as you walked in? What are your first kind of like impressions that you're getting?

Patti Negri: The first impressions I got were beautiful. Just looking at the outside and seeing that they have the 100 year anniversary and seeing this beautiful old building and feeling the bones within it, even the fact that it's sitting in a garden setting, that's going to add to the magic. And the second we went up those stairs, the second we walked through the doors, it was like, they're here. And I think they know we're here.

Sheridan: That's great. And how about you, Linda? Any first impressions?

Linda, the Ghost Hunter: Oh, yeah. So we had to go to the restroom. And, uh, I think I run into more ghosts in the restroom than anybody should ever do in their lifetime. But we were walking down the hallway and the historic just the lights and all the stuff, the original stuff. I'm like, oh yeah, yeah, this hallway is haunted. And then we went to the bathroom. I'm like, yeah, this bathroom is haunted. So yeah, if that's just the beginning, can you imagine when we actually start wandering around what we're going to find? I am so excited.

Sheridan: Tarō Gomi said it best “everybody poops!”. Well, thank you so much, Linda and Patti for being with us today. We can't wait to see what you find.

Brenda Breaux: Could those be the ghost staff have felt over the years? Our journey continues in lower level four. What surprises will take shape?

Patti Negri: Um, this has been an interesting night. A little it a little bit was kind of like herding cats. I think the spirits knew we were coming and came and it was kind of like peek in, peek out, go over here, go over there. I have lots to say. Which made it a little chaotic.

Linda, the Ghost Hunter: Very much so.

Sheridan: Central Library houses an impressive 2.8 million books, 5000 magazine subscriptions, and over 4 million photographs amongst a plethora of other materials. It is no wonder that with nine subject departments, there is bound to be material on one area of interest you may have, and that includes the occult. Which brings us to our Social Science Philosophy and Religion department, which houses materials that include the mystic, the obscure, the spooky, and the Ooky. Today we talk with Amanda Mellor so she can offer more insight into the collection. Hey Amanda, thanks for being with us today. Um, can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and your role here at the library?

Amanda Mellor: Absolutely. So starting from the very beginning, I grew up going to public libraries. My mom is a huge reader, kind of moved around a little bit. And wherever we were, the public library was always there. A lot of my, uh, you know, psyche and interests and future life trajectories were formed at the public library. And so it was just always a place I love to be. Um, funnily enough, I never thought of being a librarian. Like, I never thought that was like a job. I was just like, oh, the library is a place where the books are and where the internet was. We didn't have internet at home for a while. Yeah. So it was only until I moved to LA maybe ten years ago that I thought, hey, you know, let's, let's give this a whirl. So yeah, I started here in the social science department as a messenger clerk in June 2017. And I was cool being a clerk. It was great. Yeah. Um, but over the course of my time working in the department, I saw how transformational this library central library is in particular for our patrons and our community. And I thought maybe I should go to library school. I need a, I need to contribute to this. You know, I want to be a part of this. I went to school and I was in some other departments outreach for a little bit. And, um, but I transferred back to social science, philosophy and religion and yeah, I've been loving it ever since.

Sheridan: Nice. I didn't realize that you and I had such a similar trajectory, um, because I was actually a kid that would go to the library all the time to, uh, and I started working in libraries when I was like 15 years old. And it wasn't until I was about in my mid 20s when I was like, “oh, wait, you want to be a librarian?” Like, how did it take me this long to realize that this is what I wanted to do? I had already been working in libraries for so long. I had been going to libraries my whole life, and then I kind of just dawned on me one day out of the blue, which was kind of interesting. But for any listeners who don't know, Amanda is renowned in the library world for her work with people experiencing homelessness, both outside of the library in different settings in Skid Row, but also because she helps to coordinate The Source here at Central Library, which is a sort of resource fair for people who are living on the street or facing housing instability or other kinds of instability. And we're super proud of her work here at central. Amanda, give us a little bit of a brief overview of the department and what it offers the public.

Amanda Mellor: I can't say it any better than what our display says up in the Getty Gallery right now. Um, so if you don't mind, I will let you know that our department is from Plato to the Paranormal. This department spans the serious, the spiritual, and the sensational, making it one of the library's most browsed, borrowed and debated sections. Whether you're seeking life advice, sacred texts, or deep dives into the human psyche, the Social Science, Philosophy and Religion Department opens doors to endless exploration.

Sheridan: And so Social Sciences has a ton of different materials. What kind of stuff are patrons asking for? Have you or your colleagues down in Social Science’s noticed that there are like some overriding topics that people are interested in?

Amanda Mellor: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, in addition to, um, sort of your more like meat and potatoes topics like law, you know, true crime, you know, we get a lot of that. However, um, honestly, the, the paranormal is a huge draw. Uh, astrology.

Sheridan: That's why I go down there.

Amanda Mellor: Exactly. Yeah. Well, yeah, astrology is probably one of our top topics. And so we have, um, astrological tables in 50 year spans too. So I guess you could, um, figure out. I mean, I guess these days you just go onto a website and type in things. But if you ever wanted to like learn how to do it yourself, we have the books to determine what happened at this time for this person. So we have like, I think at 1950 to the year 2000. And then like as we speak right now, we have the year 2000 to 2050. So I guess you could find out what's going to happen in the future.

Sheridan: Yeah. Like why the planets are going to be and stars are going to be positioned.

Amanda Mellor: Exactly.

Sheridan: That's amazing.

Amanda Mellor: And, um, but I will say that there is an enduring interest in esoteric areas such as extrasensory perception, demonology, occult religions, astrology, witchcraft, and magic. The department aims to represent all viewpoints, even when controversial.

Sheridan: Oh, okay. I will say as having as being somebody who's worked in libraries for a very long time. Um, that whole section, I think it's what the 100s and the 330s are always.

Amanda Mellor: The 133s.

Sheridan: The 133s.

Amanda Mellor: Yeah

Sheridan: Are always, always like disheveled people are always stealing those books. 

Amanda Mellor: Well used, well loved. 

Sheridan: Well used, well loved.

Amanda Mellor: Sometimes they never come back. Maybe they disappear. Maybe they entered another dimension.

Sheridan: They often never come back. Yeah. Um. God forbid anybody buys a copy of Beyond a Pale Horse because, you know, it's gonna it's gonna go missing.

Amanda Mellor: Art is currently missing. We have a desk. We had a desk reference copy.

Sheridan: Mhm. Oh, wait. Behold a Pale Horse. Yeah. Behold a Pale Horse. Yes. I think I said beyond so. So the social sciences department includes a section of materials that deal with and describe the occult. Um, can you provide our listeners with a brief overview of what the occult section in particular offers? Any, any standout titles or, um, any kind of like weird material that's in there that you might know about?

Amanda Mellor: Uh, yes. Well, first of all, I'd like to perhaps define what is the occult using one of our fabulous online databases, or from the Britannica Encyclopedia of World Religions, which states that occultism is “Various theories, practices, and rituals based on an alleged or esoteric knowledge. The world of spirits and unknown forces. The wide range of beliefs and practices generally held to be in the occult include alchemy, divination, magic, and witchcraft”. So yes, we've got all that. Yeah. No. So in terms of some titles, like we have a pretty heavy, um, collection of um, like early spiritualism. So like Madame Blavatsky, we have Rosicrucians, Edgar Cayce, New Age stuff. Um, Manly P. Hall. We have a huge and that is not necessarily occult, tt's just like really cool and like something that I don't think a lot of people know that we have, we have a huge, huge copy of The Red Book by Carl Jung. Um, but yeah, I mean, it's something that I think is worth mentioning too, that we have is we have reference periodicals. Um, so like today's astrologer, like we have like material that like you probably can't find online. I mean, you mentioned Beyond a Pale Horse, which isn't the occult necessarily, but like in Social Science, we have books with reputations. Yeah. You know, so that's one. We have like the 48 Laws of Power. We have the Satanic Bible, all kinds of different, like dictionaries and encyclopedias. Yeah. All kinds of things.

Sheridan: Stuff with like an agenda, stuff that's got like.

Amanda Mellor: You know, that's the fun thing I think about this department is it's up to you, you know, you're, you're in the driver's seat here in social science. You know, it's like other subject departments are like, okay, here's how you garden, here's how you play the piano. Here we give you the building blocks for self-reflection.

Sheridan: Sure. 

Amanda Mellor: What that means for you and then what you can do with it. All right. Yeah.

Sheridan: Well, for any listeners out there who want any of this kind of material. Visit Lower level three here at the Central Library. You might bump into Amanda, uh, and she might help you find some, find some stuff. Yeah. To help you change your life or change somebody else's life, I don't know. Um, okay, so you have a ton of this kind of material down here in Social Science. And some people believe that when you get a ton of this kind of material together, it kind of tends to attract, uh, certain types of forces. We'll put it, we'll put it that way. Um, do you happen to have yourself any ghost stories or maybe some of your colleagues might have have an encounter that might be deemed a little bit out of the normal paranormal even?

Amanda Mellor: Yes, I can, uh, I can share an experience one of our messenger clerks had that is firmly in the 133.4 subject. So he was in our closed stacks, which is, um, our behind the scenes reference collection. It is um, giant room. It is, you can hear a pin drop. And so one shift, he was in the middle of the stacks square in the middle. So. And these are huge, very long stacks. He was up upon a step stool and quiet. He was shelving quietly when all of a sudden he felt something “phew!” across his backside. There were no footsteps going by. He was in the middle of the stacks, so no one could have reached around and like, got him. He was just dumbfounded and bolted. He was like, “uh-uh, I'm not staying around for this!” And he chose another duty to perform that was not in the closed stacks.

Sheridan: Yeah.

Amanda Mellor: Unexplainable.

Sheridan: Yeah. Yeah. Those closed stacks are are for sure spooky. Yes. No doubt about it. And the History ones too. They just go on forever. Yes. I don't know if I've ever read ghost by a ghost, but. But. Wow. Wow. Yeah. So so yeah, Central's got some Central's got some stories to share. Um, okay. Amanda. So, uh, is there anything else about social sciences that you would want to share with, with our listeners?

Amanda Mellor: Yeah. Well, you know, in addition to the paranormal, the occult, we have a lot of really, really awesome things here too. I mean, like, this is that is truly awesome in terms of like “awe!”

But we also have Occupational Test books. We have, um, grad school study books. And yeah, we have ways to understand society. We have. Yeah. It's like general, like psychology, self-help, ethics. Um, and of course, you know, the big names that are in our, you know, in our name, Social Science, Philosophy and Religion, like we have sacred texts from around the world throughout time. And it's just honestly, it's a really fun collection to browse. I have a book now that I've checked out like Mongolian folk religions. Like where else are you gonna find this?

Sheridan: That's amazing.

Amanda Mellor: You know. And that's circulating. You could check it out, too.

Sheridan: Yeah. Yeah. All right. For any listeners, come on down to Social Sciences,Philosophy and Religion, and, uh, let yourself fall into the vortex and see, see where you end up, see where you end up. Okay. Amanda. So I think as we come to a close with this interview, I'll ask you a question that I ask of every single person on the podcast. What is your favorite part of Central library?

Amanda Mellor: Yes, absolutely. Well, you know, it's funny, after sharing the story about our messenger cleric and what happened to him in this particular location. Um, my favorite part is the Social Science closed stacks. Um, because it's silent, you can just quietly go up and down the stacks. It sort of reminds me of the feeling like, say, if you've ever like traveled to like Spain or Italy or on this busy loud street, and then you just kind of turn off into this old stone cathedral and you're like, there's something different here. And that's how I feel when I walk into the cloud stacks, because what we have there is only staff get to browse this, you know, I mean, like you, dear patron can absolutely view this material, but you need to have a title. You can't just say, oh, just bring me whatever, whatever. It's like, oh no, I so I can walk up and down. These are books that are, um, as I like to say, is precious enough to keep safe, but valuable enough to share. Yeah. There's so much possibility. I think that's what I really love about public libraries in general is like, each book offers a different possibility for you and it's between you and the book. Yeah, that's another great thing. I think, you know, there's a lot of benefits to, um, digital media accessing things online, but there's something truly special about you and a book, you and the page, you get to determine exactly how quickly you read it. When you flip the page, how long you get to savor and sit with it. So, um.

Sheridan: Yeah.

Amanda Mellor: Yeah. 

Sheridan: Thank you so much, Amanda, for giving us, uh, a little, a little peek behind the veil of the Social Sciences department. Uh, you all are a remarkable department here at Central. Uh, one of the most trafficked for sure. Uh, and, uh, yeah, for any listeners out there who want to come and visit, uh, Lower Level 3 Central is always ready to welcome you. Thanks, Amanda.

Amanda Mellor: Thank you.

Sheridan: Today's episode was made possible by executive producer Christina Hairston and producer Melissa Ortiz. It was recorded at the Central Library with help from the amazing staff in the Octavia Lab. If you'd like to see photos, documents, or more about the places and spaces we discussed in today's episode, check the Central 100 podcast show notes at lapl.org/central 100. I'm your host, Sheridan J. Cazarez, with the Los Angeles Public Library. Thanks for listening to the Past Due podcast, and we'll see you at the library.